Saturday, August 12, 2023

OSR Commentary On The Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dieties & Demigods By Robert Kuntz & James Ward - Godly Matters

 "Cyclopedia of Gods and Heroes from Myth and Legend

Provides the Dungeon Master with gods, heroes and monsters from myth, fiction and legend for use in rounding out an Advanced D&D campaign. Within this book are seventeen pantheons of divinities, each profusely illustrated. Also included are new material on clerics' conduct and their relationships with their deities, information on character mortality and immortality, and more!" 


This blog entry is going to pick up from here with our Jeff Grubb Manual of The Planes entry. 


Dieties & Demigods 1st edition ( yes the edition with the Cthulhu Mythos, the Elric, & Lieber Mythos) within remains a favorite. And what kicked this off is Thomas Denmark's review of the Kuntz & Ward's Dieties & Demigods. The publication history &information from the Dieties & Demigods wiki entry contains several interesting things;" TSR published the first version of Deities & Demigods in 1980 as a 144-page hardcover for the first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rules.[2] This edition, by James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz, served to update the material they had earlier included in 1976's Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes for the original D&D ruleset.[3] The book presents the game statistics and background information for gods and legendary heroes and creatures taken from various mythologies.[4] The original edition included 12 pantheons of gods taken from both myth and folklore, as well as gods for various nonhuman races, and four groups taken from fictional works: the Arthurian heroes, the Nehwon mythos from Fritz Leiber, the Melnibonéan mythos from Michael Moorcock, and the Cthulhu Mythos from H. P. Lovecraft.[2] These statistics are presented in a fashion similar to that of the Monster Manual, and illustrations accompany the statistics, as well as a short description that details what circumstances might cause the god to personally appear and what actions the god might take in such an instance, and what responsibilities and penchants that god may have.[3] The book also details the mythoi of these religions, as well as what behaviors are expected of clerics, and describes the known planes of existence and how characters may find themselves in the afterlife .[3] Interior illustrations were submitted by Jeff Dee, Eymoth (Kenneth Rahman), Jennell Jaquays,[a] Dave S. LaForce, Jeff Lanners, Erol Otus, Darlene Pekul, Jim Roslof, David C. Sutherland III, and D.A. Trampier.[5]

The original Deities & Demigods includes a 9-page chart for clerics, as well as an entire chapter about the various planes of existence.[



Now I'm not going over any of the controversy that surrounds the Dieties & Demigods book. You can read about that on the Dieties & Demigods wiki entry here.
What no one really talks about in thier various reviews, commentaries, etc. is the nine page clerical chart & Great Wheel Cosmology section within the Dieties and Demigods Gods book. Sure you'll see Amazon reviews like Patrick Payne's from October 2007; "This is a good addition to any 1st Edition AD&D library, particularly any one that is going to be set on a fantasy Earth. The book presents a number of well-known real mythoi (even if they are somewhat changed from their historical underpinnings for ease of gameplay -- but Schick and Kuntz do provide an extensive bibliography for the source material) including lesser-known pantheons such as the Native American and Finnish gods. There is even a section for King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table (following Mallory's Morte d'Arthur, and not the post-Roman noble he probably was, but that's just a nitpick). Monsters and other heroes conected with the deities are also included.


But the most legendary point of the book is, of course, official AD&D stats for Cthulhu and others in the Lovecraft mythos -- and they are bruisers.

Don't let the deities' stat blocks fool you into thinking the gods are there like other monsters -- for the purpose of "kill it and take its stuff." These gods are GODS -- they have stats only to be used "if absolutely necessary." Any of these deities could reasonably be expected to kill a PC of almost any level within a round or two (and some, like Cthulhu, could even make short work of some of the toughest critters from the Monster Manual such as Demogorgon or Orcus). Use them sparingly as direct combat opponents (although sending Cthulhu [400 HP, 30 attacks (you read that right) of a damage level I don't recall, but obscenely high] against a "full of itself, 'let's rip the moustache off the king and raid his treasury'" party might just knock some sense into them <evil laugh>), instead trying to use them as either patrons or prime movers -- The PCs probably would never face Loki or Izumo, but might be fighting fire giants or Ogre Magi/Oni that the gods are directing.

One thing -- make sure to look carefully at the product description. If you want just any copy, any edition of this book (or the identical-but-for-a-different-cover-and-title Legends and Lore) are extremely serviciable. But if you're a collector, or are looking to use the 1st Edition stats for the Cthulhu or Melinebone (sp?) mythoi, be sure the product description states that it is the first edition -- after that (and perhaps a second printing), TSR decided to take the stats out rather than have to give a "thank you" credit to Chaosium. However, some later printings have the "thank you" note without the stats (they hadn't gotten around to changing the plates) -- therefore get the first printing and you're assured of Lovecraftian goodness."

Sure there's a ton of great information there but what the reviewer isn't telling you and what makes Kuntz & Ward's Dieties & Demigods the fourth core AD&D first edition book is that nine page chart for clerics. Why? Because it gives all of the information about whom the cleric's god is opposition too, what is required of the cleric, and more. Its the combination of the chart and the stat blocks of the gods that makes Dieties & Demigods an invaluable book. In point of fact Dieties and Demigods 1st edition is invaluable for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons clerics. Because it continues the material from Kuntz & Ward's Gods, Demigods, and Heroes from original Dungeons & Dragons. 


































Comparing and contrasting the two supplements is day and night. The Advanced Dungeons & Dragons version expands on the entries of Gods. Demi Gods, and Heroes. This isn't to say that it's superior but simply that it's a different edition of the same material spun & edited for a different edition. But if your PC's somehow 
do end up on a god's home plane, boy are they going to be in trouble. 
And  for the 'Great Wheel Cosmology' Dieties & Demigods collected all of the information about the planes and then spun it with the gods. And this is also the first appearance of the Demi Human & Humanoid races which were James Ward's creation according to the Forgotten Realms Dieties & Demigods Wiki entry; "
Deities & Demigods was the first print appearance of various fictional non-human deities, such as Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, and others, many of which have become standard features of Dungeons & Dragons and its derivatives. These deities were the creation of James Ward.

The original edition covered 12 pantheons of gods from myth and folklore, plus gods for various nonhumans, and four fictional groups: the Arthurian heroes, Fritz Leiber's Nehwon mythos, Michael Moorcock's Melnibonéan mythos, and H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. These statistics are presented in a fashion similar to that of the Monster Manual, and the statistics are accompanied by illustrations, as well as a short descriptive piece that details under what circumstances the god will appear, what the god might do if he does appear, and what his responsibilities and penchants may be. The book also details the mythoi of these religions, as well as how their clerics should behave, and describes the known planes of existence and how the afterlife applies to characters." 
For the Delving Deeper rpg, OSRIC, or even Castles & Crusades - Dieties & Demigods remains incredibly useful especially for putting a complete different spin on clerics for these games. Dieties and Demigods is almost but not quite completely unknown to the fifth edition player. 
There are are vast differences between the cosmology of Jeff Grubb's Manual of the Planes & Dieties & Demigods in the placement of the gods and planes. This is something that the DM is going to have to work at resolving themselves. For Castles & Crusades this means possibly either using or ignoring C&C dieties cosmology & mythology or using Dieties & Demigods cosmology as thier campaign setting's. 
The Manual of the Planes & OP1: Tales of the Outer Planes" (1988) comepletely messes with the cosmology further indicating some huge planar conflict that may have upset the balance of the multiverse or planes. The DM has to decide this from here. 





No comments:

Post a Comment

Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.