Down & Dirty In The Back Alleys of Haven - Thieves Guild By GameLord Ltd. & Castles & Cruasades Rpg Campaigns

 There is something very compelling about the Thieves Guild & The Free City of Haven By Gamelords Ltd.published in 1984 it represents a completely different asthetic to the 'spit and polished' products of today's OSR. And yet Game lords limited speaks volumes to me as a DM. 

The Beyond The Black Gate Blog back in 2011 went over the system with a very telling paraphasing from the OD&D forum about the Thieves Guild gateway system; "Thieves Guild occupies a space between being an AD&D hack and being its own game; it is obvious that the creators built it by expanding on the core AD&D framework, and there are innumerable artifacts of this heritage (e.g. the ability of thieves to use scrolls). The system occupies 33 pages in the initial TG installment, with the understanding that later products would fill out unexplored areas, which they did - if you buy an installment, it is going to be a grab bag of optional rules, modular encounters and small scenarios (usually around a common theme). For example, Installment 2 adds more weapon types (with adjusted damage ratings), combat rules, guidelines for hiring and maintaining hirelings, bandit and highwayman encounters, and The Tombs of Shale-Chuun scenario, which combines the mini-dungeons of Keep on the Borderlands with the traps of The Tomb of Horrors, and is a cool, flexible set of adventures. The approach to the rules is extremely modular, and it would be relatively easy to rebuild them to one's liking."

"Ability scores include Strength, Dexterity (subdivided into Coordination and Reflexes), Stamina (also used to derive Magic Resistance), Intelligence (subdivided into Discretion and Talent) and Attractiveness (subdivided into Appearance and Magnetism). Abilities are rolled on 3d6.
Races are a mixture of tolkienesque and fairy tale: humans, elves, half-elves, dwarves, hobbits, kobolds, orcs, uruk hai, half-orcs, goblins, pixies and centaurs are all playable. Additionally, random social background, modified by race, is a part of the game, influencing starting wealth, as well as weapon and non-weapon skills.
Damage uses the contemporary 3rd party abbreviation HTK (Hits To Kill); however, HTK is not a function of class, but an average of Strength and Stamina further modified by a table based on the total of these two attributes (e.g. if the total is 10 or less, the character gains +1d4 HTK; if it is 10-19, it is +1d6 etc.). There are separate saving rolls, which are actually roll-under ability checks rolled with 2d12; they are also used for non-combat task resolution.
Combat: the game uses HAC0 (a precursor to AD&D's THAC0, which was listed in the DMG but left unexplained until later) to resolve hits; weapons have different HAC0 ratings, daggers being easier to use than maces or larger swords. Combat actions take place simultaneously, and there is no initiative, so a character who suffers a death blow may still strike back. There are critical hits and fumbles resolved with a relatively simple chart, and thieves are given additional combat maneouvres (backstabbing, coshing (KOs), poison use and striking from concealment. Armour works as in D&D, but the base value is 0 and goes up, so quilted cloth is AC 2, leather AC 4, chain AC 6, scale AC 8 and plate AC 10. Additionally, armour absorbs a small amount of damage (1-3).
Skills: there is a wide range of skills associated with social background; characters must spend double skill points to purchase skills above their social standing! The skills of Thieves Guild are much more socially oriented than D&D's, and include a loving attention to roguish pursuits (which are treated separately, so any social class can learn them without penalty).
Magic: a full magic system is absent from the initial installment, but subsequent modules add it gradually - in the scenarios of installment 1 and 2, there are example spell lists which work on a spell point basis, and are probably more mundane and less interesting than the exoticism AD&D occasionally went into.
Experience: experience is awarded for combat, the sale of stolen goods (very cool!), successful ability rolls and success during encounters (with success conditions set by the DM). Gaining levels results in the occasional extra hit dice (e.g. one is gained at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th and 12th level), hit probability (+2 per 4 levels), dodge bonus (to AC, +1 per 3 levels) and the increase of thief abilities. As a neat way to treat NPCs, Thieves Guild stat blocks classify them as Green (LVL 1-2), Intermediate (LVL 3-5), Veteran (LVL 6-7) and Elite (LVL 8+).
Further guidelines focus on fields thieves may find interesting - these are separate subsystems for disguise, fencing, traders, a treatise on guild membership and structure, a justice system (with a huuuuuge chart to determine outcomes; however, Judges Guild's similar guidelines are more colourful).

There are allusions in the books to parts of The Fantasy System that would be presumably released later (and might have been - I only own the first two installements) - classes such as Archers, Centurions, Healers, Mages, Priests, Priestly Mages, Illusionists, Assassins, Troubadours, Traders Hetearae etc. are mentioned but not detailed.

An NPC stat block for Thieves Guild may look like this:

Quote:

Torban the Turbulent: VET HU FTR [Veteran Human Fighter]; ST 18, CO 16, RF 16, SM 17, MR 11; Weapon BDSWDe [broadsword wielded with expertise] HAC0 4, Damage 3d8, L BOWe -2/2/6 1d6, Spear 3/6 2d8; AC C/S [Clothes/Shield]; HTK 44; WRHOR [Warhorse].

"In conclusion, it must be added that the scenarios and playing aids of Thieves Guild are done with obvious care and understanding, although they are not typical D&D fare - better suited to a game with more emphasis on social simulation and social encounters than improbable dungeon crawls. For example, the first installment has very detailed encounter modules with merchants, locales for cat-burglary (one set in the Street of Silk Veils, a red-light district; another in an area of magic and curio shops) and random encounters." This means that because of the lower tier urban style adventures Thieves Guild and it's products could potentially and easily could be used with the Castles & Crusades rpg to set up a very low tier sleazy & highly dangerous criminal or underworld setting  style campagn. 

And a prime urban setting for this is Haven The Free City by Gamelords Ltd. which we've talked about at length on this blog. And why? Well let's look at Christian's commets from the Beyond the Black Gate blog; "

christianJune 30, 2011 at 9:19 AM

"I played a lo of Thieves Guild back in the day. The experience of exploring Haven permanently turned me off to dungeon crawls, which I found rather dull by comparison. Who cares about a bunch of orcs in a cave when you can visit the House of Silk Veils, drink with the ruffians at the Prancing Pony and plan daring robberies and heists?" Is there a point here?! Yes the Thieves Guild products which are still available from Different Worlds site here. And they offer a slightly different take on the usual dungeon raids with things being switched up to tomb robbing and daring heists, and really nasty crimes just waiting for the PC's to get in on the action. If your players know all of the classic modules allow them to get into a bit of thievery with Thieves Guild #2 "Roam the stone corridors in the burial vaults of the ancient city of Shale-Chuun, Match wits with the tomb designers of old to detect and disarm diabolically devious devices of doom (say that three times fast!). Leave with treasure worth a kingdom, or maybe you won't leave at all ..."

"And ten highwaymen encounters, plus expanded rules for handling combat, magic, and hireling procurement, and much, much, more ." These classic Gamelord products allow a DM to run a classic Sword & Sorcery campaign with Castles & Crusades with a classic spin that many players won't even be familar with. Many of the Gamelord ltd products were religated to the discount bins back in the day and so the usual suspects & collectors bypassed many of these products. And it doesn't take genius to move between the systems rather easily. One thing I always loved about the Gamelords Ltd products were that the ladies were always dressed with great & practical armor. They looked like adventurers who meant business and Gamlords product were focused on urban & underworld adventures. 

Could these Thieves Guild products be used to create and round out an all thieves or criminals campaign in C&C?! Yes quite nicely and easily. And for a lower tier, magic and underworld focused campaign the DM and players couldn't go wrong.